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Mass Effect 3s ending is not art, unless you consider it indoctrination.
I don't even understand how the topic of "art is this" or "consumer testing" came about, but Stephen was off subject of what the fans were voicing. Nikole was on subject although kinda bias. Her point stood, but seemed like a whining teenager. My problem was with Stephen. Never once did he say if he even cared about the flaws in the writing of ME3( which I believe in the Indoctrination theory so it can make sense ) or the fact of the decisions of previous games mattering to the end. Which that was the complaint of the fans. No closure on what happened to everyone, no point in your decisions from previous games for the end, and why in the world was your crew fleeing? Those are the general complaints of this games ending. Yes, some people were CRAZY about this ending, but that is a minority of the fans. Most were either okay or had those questions mentioned earlier. I'm included in the latter. So I this patch coming out is a good thing for both ends of the spectrum. For those who were dissatisfied with the ending, they get more information. For those satisfied with the ending, you shouldn't even care about what is included. This patch doesn't CHANGE the ending, just adds more to it. As for the crazy people, you won't be satisfied no matter what they do so, sorry.
Fans are no where in the wrong, critics/developers are full fledged in the wrong. BioWare is in huge danger because their losing the consumers which is a lot more important then producers and critics.
I believe the problem with the ending of mass effect 3 was it did not stay true to the gameplay of the series. the themes were covered well i believe and i did not see problems with the endings as far as the artistic approach. when a company over five years markets the game as containing a system which allows me to personalize my experience by choice and then not have those choices matter in the end, it sucks. Bioware can make any game they wish if they advertise it accordingly. I would hate it if my favorite rock musician marketed his cd as sticking true to his previous approach, just to have disco in it, it is still art but it is not what i was marketed. if the musician said they were doing something different then it would be fine, but that was not the case with the game. I was promised wildly different endings based on choices that spanned the entire series. the 3 choices were fine, but they needed to inform me of why my choices mattered. after the choice it could have radiated into different endings based on my choices. the mass effect series allowing us to make choices was one of the biggest features of the game. i was carrying subtle differences i expected to affect my outcome because i was told they would. then i found out in the 3rd that i only had 3 choices unaffected by affected by my previous choices. I question why a company would go through the trouble of creating an rpg when the endings could have easily been fit into a fps format. the bottom line is you can make what you want as an artist, but but please do not lie to me.
I work in the game industry and absolutely get so annoyed by Nikole...granted everyone is entitled to their opinion but how she got on this show is beyond me. I feel like for anyone to be on this show they should have more experience not just in playing games but in game development so they seem to know what they are talking about.
Mr. Johnson, I appreciate your point of view. Your presentation was freaking awesome. Calm, honest, thought provoking and fun. Thanks! (Old school vs. New School disagreement) Gotta love it!I did not have a problem with the ending. I do not think that I am "entitled" to anything from Bioware. I hope they are working on ME4. Honestly, I am not looking forward to the upcoming DLC in the near future. Once it is released, I don't think it will make everyone happy. Making everyone happy is a very tall order. Blair, I remember watching your first Feedback and you seemed very nervous. You are now commanding the ship with ease. Nice job Blair! Keep it up!
I didn't play or pick up Mass Effect 3 so the issues of gameplay and ending are irrelevant to me. However, as an artist and a potential game maker it saddens me to see the state of mind of the average gamer in regards to this argument. Art, above all else, is in the hands of the artists. All the viewer can do is inspect and judge its apparent worth to themselves. Bioware created something and they allow it to be shared and enjoyed by others. You do not own anything about it other than your own personal copy. If your argument is that its of shoddy work and questionable end then I have to ask the obvious question: Why did you buy it?Did Bioware herd you into a local store and force you to part with you money for a copy of their creation? Did they spirit your money away in the night and leave a copy of Mass Effect 3 in your players? No. You willingly parted with your income under your own free will. You rushed out money clenched tightly in fist without care or concern and made an uneducated purchase of an inferior product. The only one at fault is yourself. You can chant on forums and express your displeasure but in the end all you get in return for this experience should be a lesson. A lesson on how to be a wiser and better consumer. You wait a week or 2. Read multiple reviews and make an informed and educated decision on what to do with your money. This isn't a case of Art Vs Product, the rights of the fans overshadowing that of the creators, or even the question of a shoddy product. This is a case of fools and their money being parted and them blaming everything but themselves. Another quick point: We review games but we're fans of games too.. I'm sorry but as a reviewer you should leave your fan status at the door and review a game without bias or prejudice. Your responsibility is to the potential consumer and not the artists. That's how miscommunication happens.
Do a search on You Tube for " Mass Effect 3 - Shepard's Indoctrination (NEW) " It answers all the questions. If it turns out that Bioware wrote the game with this intent, it is the biggest prank ever played on the game playing population of the world in the history of video games. Having had no clue about the endings, I chose the blue ending on my first run through...and yes, I was disappointed and chaulked it up to some EA exec demanding the game be released NOW! If the above video you find is actually "The Twist"....man....all I can say is.....BIOWARE IS ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!!!! And I'll feel like a chump that I didn't catch it.
Can someone tell me why the indoctrination theory doesn't make sense?
Why so many people simply ignored Nikole's point that: [[[[[ the ending is full of plot holes]]]]] ?It's objective, factual contradictions. At one point the story established 1+1=10. (ok, fine, this is Sci Fi)But at ending it said 1+1=20, without explanation. (What?! Then why someone died before due to 1+1=10? Why Shepard accepted 1+1=20 without noticing the contradiction?)This is NOT about "like it or not".NOT about artistic integrity.It's bugs. Tons of bugs.Why wrong to ask for fixing bugs?
I think too many people wanted a simplified Michael Bay level ending, with the complexity and art of the Transformer series. Apparently there is no room for art in games apparently.Here is everyone's perfect ending based off of the feedback:Weapon is activated, Shepard kills all the Reapers, he buys a house with the chosen love interest, and has a BBQ with the remaining crew. Happily ever after, the end. Here's hoping that Bioware does not pander like this.
I liked the ending that I got, and as soon as Buzz walked off the screen, I started over my second game right away, the first was a ParagonFemShep and the second was a RenagadeMaleShep, I avoided any and all info of the game regarding anything about it so I went in blind only expecting what I was expecting. The game it'self was great and agreed the ending was a bit plain, but I enjoyed it just the same. Yes more details would have been good but this is Si-Fi, STUFF DOES NOT TO NEED TO MAKE SENSE. I have invested 15 complete plays of ME1 and ME2 with 100% and if I new that the end of the 3rd would be so vague, I still play the series.Here is what I think of all of this: Question? Have you seen the movie " Contact " ? with Jodie Foster?Same stuff, (SPOILER) The hole movie takes 1 min to finalize, it was a slight let down but over all the movie was good. Next, " The devils advocate " again the hole movie takes place in again about 1 minand yet the movie was good. Next, if you go to the movies and watch, let's say "Avatar" , and you don't like the ending, are you going to go to Cameron's house and tell him to change it? I really don't think so.This has been my own opinion.p.s. maybe they should have made it vaguer and make a ME4... the way things are going who knows...
Mr. Stephen Johnson I am 100% with you sir. I loved all your reasons about why the ending was just fine. Then Nikole started talking. GREAT POINTS! You are well spoken, and thank you for letting me hear what the problems were with the ending, that I didn't even realize or notice, and you were right about all of your points. The last battle before heading up into the citadel was SO HARD for me that I didn't notice the things you were talking about, but you are correct in all of your criticisms. So, I guess I was 100% with Stephen, until you started arguing with Nikole, and all I can say is that I never, ever want to get into an argument with that young woman. Too smart! To me the game never gelled until Miranda died in my arms. Then I was PISSED OFF, and someone was going to die a slow and painful death. I could care less about some random kid getting blown to smithereens, dumb ass didn't want to listen to me, so die dumb ass. Great discussion, and thanks for bringing points out in a meaningfully way other than just "THE ENDING SUCKED ASS!!" Good job everyone.
This was a great discussion that covered concepts not just about the video game industry but about commercial art in general and the relationship between creators and consumers. I can understand fans wanting to show their approval or disapproval of the Mass Effect series ending to the developers. But the notion of wanting a refund of their money because they didn't like it doesn't make sense to me. There has always been some amount of risk involved when we, as the audience, decide to spend for a movie ticket, book, music, or performance. We've always taken a chance, based on cover art, previews, posters, knowledge of the artists, etc. If it turned out you didn't like the book, movie, or whatever it was, that was a subjective opinion about the artistic content, not a claim that the product was defective. Unless the artists actually failed to perform, few ever felt entitled to ask for a refund. I don't see why that relationship between creators and consumers should change now. Consumers perhaps feel they have more of a voice in the process because of the interactive nature of video games. The audience feels more invested in the story and the characters. But they are still the audience. The creative decisions about things like how a story ends or what happens to a character in that story is ultimately the decision of the content creators, not the audience.
I was discussing the ending of Mass Effect 3 with a few friends and one of them stated how I felt about it perfectly.ME is like working on a novel with another writer who takes all of your insight to heart and runs with it.. After years of working on this novel feeling like it is a true meld of the two writers, at the last chapter the other writer walks in and goes, "I've got it from here, step aside." Doesn't read any of what you wrote before, writes the last few paragraphs looks at you and says, "Don't like it? Guess you're not smart enough to get my artistic vision." Then walks about laughing.
I think if developers stop taking chances and just start focus testing to see what will make the most people happy/make the most money, we're just going to end up with a bunch of Call-of-Duty-type games every year (generic games that you play and in six months, you're not going to remember what happened or why you played it). The music industry was destroyed by execs who stopped wanting talent and artists who take risks and started wanting only what was pretty and polished and would make tons of money for them at that moment. And look where that industry is today compared to what it used to be. Seeking nothing but mass approval is the beginning of the end for any entertainment medium.
Honestly, I think Blair's suggestion was the best. If they had just done a segment for each of the choices to show how your decision affected the galaxy in 50,000 years or whatever, that would just be perfect. I liked the ending, and thought it was a true Mass Effect ending, but it is unfortunate that segments showing the long-term consequences of your decision isn't there. But it surprises me that Nicole would not play the game now because of dissatisfaction with 1% of the game. I'm on my third play through and I'm having a lot of fun with it.
I don't know which was more fun, listening to Stephen Johnson or watching the cameraman behind them react to the stuff he said.
I just want what was promised to us by Casey. They said 16 ending that would reflect our choices, we got A, B, and C which is just what they said they WOULDN'T DO. Seriously I want a bitter sweet ending and a Bad ending, and yes a ending where everything goes right and it's happily ever after time. I can't help but to think they found themselves short on time and these A,B,C endings was the badly thought out compromise.... Like the half assed photoshop of Tali.
I love dark endings, and I even liked the choices at the end, but I wanted to see the consequences of my actions and how they would be different. 16 different endings shouldn't be similar. I don't care if they're dark, but they should just be different. Otherwise, why make it an RPG?
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