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Feedback: Mass Effect 3 Ending Controversy

Posted: April 4, 2012
Feedback: Mass Effect 3 Ending Controversy
http://www.g4tv.com/videos/58021/feedback-mass-effect-3-ending-controversy/
http://images.g4tv.com/ImageDb3/295436_LGST/feedback.jpg
Video_58021
Blair Herter and the Feedback crew finally addressed Mass Effect 3's controversial ending.

Comments are Closed

  • FOOL-IV

    I agree Steve! Totally with you - don't get too down (you looked a little saddened by the end there). There are others like you, we just don't yell as loud. I played, I enjoyed. I am happy.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 3:50 PM
    FOOL-IV
  • StrongestSaiyan

    I'll tell you why I'm not "awed" Steve. All three versions are 95% the same. What I saw was just plain lazy. Yeah, the war was over, but that was a given. They didn't even make a version where we could lose. And I'm not "awed" by a dark age ending considering that is about as cliche as it gets.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 3:43 PM
    StrongestSaiyan
  • NinjaMang5

    I love Bioware and Mass Effect 3, but here are the biggest grips I have. NO BOSS BATTLES at the end, No Mako or Hammerhead missions, most of the Mass Effect 2 characters got sidelined. No system like in the end of ME2 where team mates can send out and do other objectives. I really hated the ending. I stand by what I say and I hope that the ending is Indoctrination. I would rather have a dream that didn't happen then, the ending I got! Hope we get some good news at PAX.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 3:41 PM
    NinjaMang5
  • Jramzey

    The thing that stuck me the most was when they talked about how everything was or wasn't leading up to this ending. The reality is this ending wasn't planned from the start. Drew Karpyshyn who was the lead writer for ME1 and one of the main writers for ME2 said the original ending he had planned involved the concept of dark energy and the uniqueness of human genetics (both of which actually WERE hinted at throughout the series).

    Specifically, the original ending was: the mass effect has been slowly causing an increase in dark energy throughout the galaxy which would eventually lead to the galaxy destroying itself (like Haestrom in ME2, basically all stars would go supernova). The reapers were created as a way to figure out how to stop this from occurring; they are essential giant computers trying to discover a solution to this dark energy issue. Every reaper takes on the characteristics of the species its made from with the hope being that eventually one of the harvested civilizations will result in a reaper that can solve the problem. The cycle that the games take place in is theoretically the last cycle since dark energy is about to rip the galaxy apart. Fortunately, the reapers believe that humans' unique genetic diversity would allow them to finally create a reaper that can solve the this. This all would have been explained to Shep at the very end and then the choice that Shep would have to make would be whether to sacrifice humanity to create a reaper to solve the dark energy issue, or to destroy the reapers and hope that the civilizations of the current cycle can come up with a solution themselves.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 3:28 PM
  • Makaiju

    I am amazed that both this game and this feedback can instill such emotions in me that I cannot seem to write up feedback that comes in less than 10,000 words.

    So I will bite my preverbal lip on all the things I really want to say and just cover these points:

    Art is about delivery and consistence, not changing up your style to shock someone. Andy Kaufman was a celebrated comic because everything he did was a joke. He would anger fans because his JOKE was to go to a comedy club and read Charles Dickens instead of telling jokes. He turned the entire experience of going to a comedy club into the joke of the audience not getting what they expected. He didn t come out and do 45 minutes of jokes and then read Shakespeare for 15 minutes. ME3 changed the game and story deliver on the player at the end and that comes off like a punch in the gut. It might be enjoyable to some but that doesn t make it art.

    Feedback should always be given but that does not mean it has to be followed. Any artist who never listens to criticism is living in denial of their own worth. Any artist that only does what critics ask for is really in advertising. That is why Stephen Johnson s comments today were so out of place compared to his comments from past episodes. No one is complaining JUST because they want a happy ending or because they felt the story didn t give them the ending events they wanted. They are not complaining because there was a Sixth Sense kind of twist at the end. (which there was not) They are complaining because there are plot holes, poor level design, a lazy or rushed feel to the presentation, and glaring sections of the end that made the game feel like Bioware or EA decided to give a fake ending and is just waiting to go PSYCH and then make you pay for the real ending. If the company just said the game only ships with ending 1.01 and the rest of the ending will come later . Well someone would still complain but the ending of the game would not be causing such an outcry. As it stands the news that Bioware has planned DLC from the beginning just feeds the idea that fans were given an incomplete or fake ending because how can you have any continued story without first admitting that their original games ending wasn t a part of Sheppards tangible reality. i.E. the ending wasn t real.

    So the idea that fans are demanding the game be re-written to reflect their ideas is very wrong. Fans are complaining because the ending of the game throws a bad movie THE END??? Kind of closing credit on the screen. Not in the good way of saying: Great! we can make more stories in this world! Instead it ends in that horrible 80s movie style of ending where they go IS THIS THE END OR IS THERE SOMETHING WE DIDN T SHOW YOU? You just never find out because the Buckaroo Banzi sequel was never made into a film.

    The end of ME3 was bad even if you loved the idea of the game only being able to end with Sheppard dieing. The developers should know that the ending was so disliked that there is a good chance many fans will not buy future bioware games. Then bioware should know why people disliked the ending so much and decide if that feedback changes how they make future games. Does it have to change the direction of Bioware games? No. Should Bioware just sit in isolation and denial about how people really feel about their games (And why)? No.

    That is why I personally cannot believe how one person known to fly off the handle, Blair, can be such a calm mediator on todays show AND YET someone known to be a thoughtful and open minded person, Stephen, can come off with such a BECAUSE I SAID SO vibe to all his comments on the same show.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 3:26 PM
    Makaiju
  • Makaiju

    I am amazed that both this game and this feedback can instill such emotions in me that I cannot seem to write up feedback that comes in less than 10,000 words.

    So I will bite my preverbal lip on all the things I really want to say and just cover these points:

    Art is about delivery and consistence, not changing up your style to shock someone. Andy Kaufman was a celebrated comic because everything he did was a joke. He would anger fans because his JOKE was to go to a comedy club and read Charles Dickens instead of telling jokes. He turned the entire experience of going to a comedy club into the joke of the audience not getting what they expected. He didn t come out and do 45 minutes of jokes and then read Shakespeare for 15 minutes. ME3 changed the game and story deliver on the player at the end and that comes off like a punch in the gut. It might be enjoyable to some but that doesn t make it art.

    Feedback should always be given but that does not mean it has to be followed. Any artist who never listens to criticism is living in denial of their own worth. Any artist that only does what critics ask for is really in advertising. That is why Stephen Johnson s comments today were so out of place compared to his comments from past episodes. No one is complaining JUST because they want a happy ending or because they felt the story didn t give them the ending events they wanted. They are not complaining because there was a Sixth Sense kind of twist at the end. (which there was not) They are complaining because there are plot holes, poor level design, a lazy or rushed feel to the presentation, and glaring sections of the end that made the game feel like Bioware or EA decided to give a fake ending and is just waiting to go PSYCH and then make you pay for the real ending. If the company just said the game only ships with ending 1.01 and the rest of the ending will come later . Well someone would still complain but the ending of the game would not be causing such an outcry. As it stands the news that Bioware has planned DLC from the beginning just feeds the idea that fans were given an incomplete or fake ending because how can you have any continued story without first admitting that their original games ending wasn t a part of Sheppards tangible reality. i.E. the ending wasn t real.

    So the idea that fans are demanding the game be re-written to reflect their ideas is very wrong. Fans are complaining because the ending of the game throws a bad movie THE END??? Kind of closing credit on the screen. Not in the good way of saying: Great! we can make more stories in this world! Instead it ends in that horrible 80s movie style of ending where they go IS THIS THE END OR IS THERE SOMETHING WE DIDN T SHOW YOU? You just never find out because the Buckaroo Banzi sequel was never made into a film.

    The end of ME3 was bad even if you loved the idea of the game only being able to end with Sheppard dieing. The developers should know that the ending was so disliked that there is a good chance many fans will not buy future bioware games. Then bioware should know why people disliked the ending so much and decide if that feedback changes how they make future games. Does it have to change the direction of Bioware games? No. Should Bioware just sit in isolation and denial about how people really feel about their games (And why)? No.

    That is why I personally cannot believe how one person known to fly off the handle, Blair, can be such a calm mediator on todays show AND YET someone known to be a thoughtful and open minded person, Stephen, can come off with such a BECAUSE I SAID SO vibe to all his comments on the same show.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 3:23 PM
    Makaiju
  • Delkarnu

    Nikole got my view pretty spot on.

    The journey was good, but one of the strongest points of Mass Effect was having various playthroughs with different choices, and I was really looking forward to creating new playthroughs to see other consequences and the ending absolutely destroyed any desire to revisit the universe of Mass Effect 3.

    Blair did have it right, Mass Effect 1 & 2 were good enough (my favorite experiences in video games) to keep me buying the series. While I don't want all of that back, I do feel as though I am owed endings in line with the rest of the series, which is multiple endings based on my actions throughout the series.. It wasn't that I expected to return every game and DLC, but I want the payoff I was promised and paid for. It was posted in more frustration in that I have no real recourse because they already have my money, they can just blow off my complaints because I can't do anything about it.

    Also, Blair, my wife was a Dark Tower fan, and she hasn't re-read that series after seeing the ending even though it was her favorite series. I think there is a difference in books and movies in that we were always going to get one ending that is wholly the author's ending. ME trilogy was promised to have endings that included my participation as a player in making choices and it didn't. We were promised and expected a video game ending and we received a book or movie ending.

    I'm glad Steven got an ending that felt good to him, and if that was one ending possibility of eliminate all technology that was in line with prior choices, (not activating legion, helping the Quarians destroy the Geth, keeping EDI as a piece of tech not as an individual) I think that would be a proper thematic close if that was the ending he received, not just as his final choice out of three.

    I always expected Shepard to die at the end, but I wanted to see the Rachni saving the alliance fleet because I saved their queen (twice), I wanted to see the Geth fleet fail because the Quarians weren't there to back them up because I failed to save them both, etc. The choices had no impact, just a number in the background. There is no reason seen why the deus-child-ex-machina wouldn't give me the green option because of that War Assets number. If I saw a fleet fall and the Reapers damage the Crucible, then being denied an ending would have made sense.

    I think Mass Effect was one of the first true Video Game Stories, because choice was so integral to the plot developing. If it got a true Video Game Ending, where that choice truly paid off, the Mass Effect trilogy would have been a truly great first example of what Video Games truly are capable of in narrative that are impossible in other forms of media. By giving it a fairly static ending ignoring that choice, it fell far, far short of that. We had 95% of a true Video Game Story with a tacked on movie ending.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 3:21 PM
    Delkarnu
  • Makaiju

    I am amazed that both this game and this feedback can instill such emotions in me that I cannot seem to write up feedback that comes in less than 10,000 words.

    So I will bite my preverbal lip on all the things I really want to say and just cover these points:

    Art is about delivery and consistence, not changing up your style to shock someone. Andy Kaufman was a celebrated comic because everything he did was a joke. He would anger fans because his JOKE was to go to a comedy club and read Charles Dickens instead of telling jokes. He turned the entire experience of going to a comedy club into the joke of the audience not getting what they expected. He didn t come out and do 45 minutes of jokes and then read Shakespeare for 15 minutes. ME3 changed the game and story deliver on the player at the end and that comes off like a punch in the gut. It might be enjoyable to some but that doesn t make it art.

    Feedback should always be given but that does not mean it has to be followed. Any artist who never listens to criticism is living in denial of their own worth. Any artist that only does what critics ask for is really in advertising. That is why Stephen Johnson s comments today were so out of place compared to his comments from past episodes. No one is complaining JUST because they want a happy ending or because they felt the story didn t give them the ending events they wanted. They are not complaining because there was a Sixth Sense kind of twist at the end. (which there was not) They are complaining because there are plot holes, poor level design, a lazy or rushed feel to the presentation, and glaring sections of the end that made the game feel like Bioware or EA decided to give a fake ending and is just waiting to go PSYCH and then make you pay for the real ending. If the company just said the game only ships with ending 1.01 and the rest of the ending will come later . Well someone would still complain but the ending of the game would not be causing such an outcry. As it stands the news that Bioware has planned DLC from the beginning just feeds the idea that fans were given an incomplete or fake ending because how can you have any continued story without first admitting that their original games ending wasn t a part of Sheppards tangible reality. i.E. the ending wasn t real.

    So the idea that fans are demanding the game be re-written to reflect their ideas is very wrong. Fans are complaining because the ending of the game throws a bad movie THE END??? Kind of closing credit on the screen. Not in the good way of saying: Great! we can make more stories in this world! Instead it ends in that horrible 80s movie style of ending where they go IS THIS THE END OR IS THERE SOMETHING WE DIDN T SHOW YOU? You just never find out because the Buckaroo Banzi sequel was never made into a film.

    The end of ME3 was bad even if you loved the idea of the game only being able to end with Sheppard dieing. The developers should know that the ending was so disliked that there is a good chance many fans will not buy future bioware games. Then bioware should know why people disliked the ending so much and decide if that feedback changes how they make future games. Does it have to change the direction of Bioware games? No. Should Bioware just sit in isolation and denial about how people really feel about their games (And why)? No.

    That is why I personally cannot believe how one person known to fly off the handle, Blair, can be such a calm mediator on todays show AND YET someone known to be a thoughtful and open minded person, Stephen, can come off with such a BECAUSE I SAID SO vibe to all his comments on the same show.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 3:20 PM
    Makaiju
  • Mashpotaters

    I think Nikole pretty much nailed it with one statement. My choices did not matter. That was my issue with the ending. The ending would otherwise be perfectly acceptable if it weren't for the fact that it's Mass Effect. I understand if BioWare wanted to end on their terms, but they built the franchise off player choice. You can't have your cake, and eat it too.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 3:19 PM
    Mashpotaters
  • MassCollegeBoy

    I agree with 90% of what you said Nicole, shine you crazy diamond, shine. I loved Mass Effect, as well as 2 and 3 so much so I didn't quite mind the ending of 3 (the journey being better than the destination, etc.). What I had the biggest problem was a product that came across as sort of rushed, buggy, and nose thumbing to it's audience. Through out my first playthrought I suffered over 20 load freezes that forced me to reboot the game, three times on the final mission alone. When I spent time on the Citadel the framerate as smooth as a can of Chunky Soup.

    But I don't think that Bioware should take much of the blame here, if at all. I can't believe that after 6+ years they would voluntarily end this massive epic on a wimper. This whole thing has a hint of EA intervention both during and post production. I could see EA being feed up with over three production meetings about how Tali's face should look like or cutting the part of the ending for paid DCL later.

    Also I did once attempted to contact Bethesda a few years ago about a game that should remain nameless that I believed was absolutely terrible, they very politlely told me "Tough Taters

    Posted: April 4, 2012 3:12 PM
    MassCollegeBoy
  • horseflesh

    The issue is not whether or not we should buy games from them in the future, setting a bar in place because of one bad game is a horrible way to set a precedent, this is why we need to be able to sell games, to get back some amount of what we put into it.

    I am pretty pissed over the end of ME3, but what's worse is that I have no way to dispense with this pos software that I bought. It's tied to an account permanently.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 3:11 PM
    horseflesh
  • Tharcos75

    I find it weird that Feedback used to run up to an hour back to back weeks and now it lasts barely 40 mins and they noticeably try to rush conversation saying that they're running out of time.

    Also I lost respect for Stephen because he doesn't care about Legion's sacrifice or for Edi's relationship with Joker... His heart must be 10 sizes too small if hes OK with blowing away everything Edi and Legion worked so hard for...

    Posted: April 4, 2012 3:07 PM
  • WillBeasley

    Thank you Nicole. Steve said they resolved themes, a story is driven by themes its driven by plots hence PLOT-HOLES) Donell actually said in the very beginning they should make games for critics not gamers because gamers don't know what makes a good game. Games are made for gamers, critics exist (like Nicole said) to help gamers make informed decisions. Nicole was the only voice of reason.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 3:01 PM
  • mastersweet

    Nikole is quite right about the numerous plot holes and such. Steve simply is fooling himself, apparent by the fact that he sincerely asked what else needed to be answered in the ending. There are so many things, large to small, that are unanswered. Even the simple fact that nothing you do actually affects the ending shows that Bioware went very off course from the whole IDEA that they created in the mass effect series.

    In respect to the business aspect, in the end your ENTIRE reason for creating the game is to make money. Yes, they are doing what the love and this is rewarding for them but in the end, it is to sell a product. If you do not want to satisfy the majority of the consumers, then you are going to be unsuccessful.

    Overall, they needed to include your choices and have an array of endings ranging from Reapers wins hands down, to Shepard lives on(Return of the Jedi ending)

    Posted: April 4, 2012 3:00 PM
    mastersweet
  • AmericanKing01

    Thank you Nicole for taking a stand against this plothole filled ending. Even if some of your coworkers don't agree with you, know that I and many other gamers do and appreciaite the fact that you don't polarize the average gamer.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 2:59 PM
    AmericanKing01
  • Invadersam

    Stephen pretty much expressed my exact opinion of the ending. While I do acknowledge that there were a few plot holes, I still really enjoyed the ending and felt it was a satisfying conclusion to the series.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 2:58 PM
    Invadersam
  • ByDesign

    For anyone that wants to know what all the fuss is over here are the articulated points and media coverage in one location

    http://social.bioware.com/fo rum/1/topic/355/index/9851623< br />
    Enjoy.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 2:55 PM
    ByDesign
  • locsphere

    I love it how they use an argument Bioware spent thousands of hours and I as a consumer is sick of hearing what BioWare has gone through.

    Point and case. I didn't want to lock into a contract with Verizon through TV. When they said I had to or not have Television I said I don't want it. Why? The person asked? I answered because I don't need it.

    Verizons Customer service rep stated, Well we launched fios. We have to make our money so if you don't like it too bad... I cancelled and a year later Verizon was suddenly offering more customer friendly options. Point and case being made now: When its your job to bring a service to people, then I don't want to hear a boohoo story about your hard work. Thats what you get paid for by me the consumer who decided whether the service and product you offer is worth my time, money and loyalty.

    Bioware spent thousands of hours to make a profit, Its a great story and that is appreciated, but its made for profit. If the masses hate it. Then you change it. If you want to do it for free. THEN YOU CAN TELL THE CONSUMER TO F OFF!

    Posted: April 4, 2012 2:54 PM
    locsphere
  • bolo73

    Nicole said it best at the end. All the players wanted to do was have there action have meaning at the end. I am not going to play the game again. There is no reason to play again. I do agree with one thing Steven said, and that is I will voice my option with my wallet and not buy the DLC like I did with Dragon age 2. That is a very sad statement to make about a bioware game. I know I am just one gamer but other games will get bought with that money. So other companies will earn my money and not bioware/EA.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 2:53 PM
    bolo73
  • locsphere

    Your user base is better than your professional reviewer. The masses buy your games. So sick of this nonsense. I am ready to stop gaming. There are massive boycotts coming to this industry the gamers have been pushed and taken advantage of too long. You make games to please the user, because they are the masses who buy your games. EA has ruined yet another company. Unless they grow a pair like UBISOFT. Be nice to see G4 IGN grow a pair too and stick up for the gamer. 65k + voted on BSN that they loathed the endings. Because a lot of them realize they have DLC planned.

    Posted: April 4, 2012 2:47 PM
    locsphere
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